Friday, August 13, 2010

Time to stop ignoring Hugo Chavez's support of terrorism

The Washington Post is very strong today in trying to keep the focus on how Hugo Chavez supports terrorism.
ONE OF the principal goals of Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez's foreign policy is preventing governments or international organizations from telling the truth about him. Over the past couple of years, captured documents and other evidence have established beyond any reasonable doubt that Mr. Chávez's regime has provided haven and material support to the FARC movement in neighboring Colombia -- a group that is known for massacres of civilians, hostage taking and drug trafficking, and that has been designated as a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department and the European Union. That places Mr. Chávez in violation of U.N. Security Council resolutions and, at least in theory, exposes him to U.S. and international sanctions.

Luckily for Mr. Chávez, the Obama administration and other Security Council members have shown little interest in recognizing what, in terms of state sponsorship of terrorism, amounts to a smoking gun. But discussion and debate about the evidence -- such as Colombia's recent presentation to a meeting of the Organization of American States -- makes this ostrich act difficult to continue. So Mr. Chávez has dedicated himself to bullying and intimidating those who dare to speak publicly about what everyone in the Western Hemisphere knows to be true.
We'll see how long the OAS and the United States keeps on chugging along while ignoring the conclusive evidence of Chavez's state sponsorship of terrorism. Obama's ambassador to Venezuela has spoken up about his concerns about Venezuela's support of terrorism and cooperation with Cuba and Chavez said that our ambassador would not be allowed to take his post in Caracas. The ball is now in Obama's court.

53 comments:

tfhr said...

Sooner or later this is going to become impossible to ignore.

Chavez' first attempt to ascend to power in Venezuela was through a coup attempt that ultimately failed. He has no respect for Democracy. Now that he's found his way to the presidency, Chavez has busied himself with dismantling democratic institutions, democratic processes, and the free market, while stifling the voice of dissent. Chavez courts Iran and their Hezbollah terrorist thugs. He's involved in narco-trafficking and has long had a hand in attacking democratically elected governments in the region, often through violent proxies, as with the FARC in Colombia.

The United States needs to treat Venezuela as a state sponsor of terrorism - but the question that comes to mind, is how do we replace them as a chief oil exporter? Then again, under Chavez' hand, petroleum exports are falling anyway as the industry falls further into disrepair in that country, so the question may become moot. One thing is sure: The longer this goes on, the worse will be the eventual reckoning.

equitus said...

Interesting to see the Chavez apologists in the WaPo article's comments section. Willful blindness or malevolent propagandists? I'm undecided.

tfhr said...

equitus,

Over the years I've noticed that Chavez' supporters are very active in attacking his detractors - especially on blogs run by Venezuelan expats that dare to challenge Chavez' government.

Still I have to laugh when I hear or see those (over here) that once adorned their bumpers with "Question Authority" stickers as they struggle to silence the "counter-revolutionaries".

travis said...

Chavez

travisleemusic said...

There seems to be a lot of negativity about Chavez here in the U.S. However, the questions needs to be asked as to how he manages to have leftist allies elected and re elected all over Latin America. It seems as if those who criticize Chavez would really need to ask themselves why the U.S.backed right wing leaders in many of these Latin American countries like Venezuela and Nicaragua, don't have the same accomplishments in areas of health,nutrition and education.It appears the Washington Consensus center right policies failed all over Latin America.Travis

travisleemusic said...

President Chavez,Daniel Ortega of Nicaragua and other leftist leaders have many accomplishments not achieved by center right governments in those nations.Travis

Pat Patterson said...

Name some? All the three amigos have accomplished so far is to try to destablize their neighbors and lower their standard of living. And the only three countries where Charismo is currently in sway are the same ones as five years ago. Most of their neighbors, Chile, Peru, Colombia, Honduras and even Brazil have elected either free marketers or leftists who behave as free marketers. Which might explain why of those three countries they are losing sometimes 2% of their population yearly migrating to some of those horrible free market countries.

travisleemusic said...

In Nicaragua much like in the 80s then of course under the stress of an illegal war and embargo,President Ortega post 2007 has reduced child malnutrition by 30 percent, the infant mortality rate has continued to drop, and unlike under US backed leaders right of center from 90-2006 where illiteracy shot up to 36 percent, under Ortega Nicaragua is on its way to be fully literate.With Chavez oil powered energy plants, Ortega has made a different in eliminated the blackouts, such blackouts occurred often under right wing leaders from 90-2006 thanks to Chavez and President Ortega they are eliminated.Other Latin Leftist have made similiar differences in their respective nations.Travis

travisleemusic said...

President Ortega of Nicaragua has reduced child malnutrition illiteracy, and the overall infant mortality rate has dropped. Compare that to 16 years of center right governments from 90-2006 where there were constant blackouts and children would go brain damaged up to five percent of children in fact,due to malnutrition.Since 2007 like in the 80s, Ortega is making a positive difference.Travis

travisleemusic said...

First of all, those leftist regimes have modified some of the free market policies which have helped them not be so unrestrained and work. But now Honduras? Is that your idea of a good example. For the short time they had Zalaya there was some improvement but Nicaragua is on its way to passing up Honduras. El Salvador has also improved and is much better than Honduras as the FMLN have gained more and more power in El Salvador things have improved, I ask once again honduras? is your idea of a good example of right wing policies.

tfhr said...

travisleemusic / Travis,

Are you sure you ought to be the one trumpeting about literacy?

I'm trying to decipher what you've posted and it's pretty hard to follow. If this is an ESL issue, I'm fine with your attempt but otherwise, you don't seem to be able to communicate a coherent thought.

Here's another thing: You're getting your stats from people that are not going to tell you the truth about conditions in those countries. Venezuela is an economic basket case. People are starving there. They export oil and they used to export food. Years of Chavista mismanagement has taken a steady toll, Travis. Nicaragua exports people - just like El Salvador. The "workers' paradise" you imagine there is the reason why so many people from those two countries will risk their lives to travel north the the United States.

Pat Patterson said...

The actual infant mortality rate has not budged in three years and this is in spite of Nicaragua switching and using the much more forgiving WHO standards of a life birth only counting if the child is alive after one year. The actual statistics might show a significant increase in the number of children that die after birth. Literacy rates are also exactly the same as before. 67.5% vs the present 67.5%. So in actual statistics, not the made up ones show no change or actually a decline.

While the other example you cite is also not quite accurate. There has been a slight improvement in infant mortality rates but again El Salvador has changed how it counts live births. It's not using the WHO formula but is now counting not as live births as before but they are using a two month cut off and then claiming the child was still born. The more children counted as still born the lower the infant mortality rate will be. Literacy has actually declined from 81.2% to the current 80.2%.

But unfortunately the more the Left makes inroad into those particular benighted countries the less reliable the statistics become. My favorite is still the thousands of doctors that are sent out from Cuba as 'volunteers' have shown all the training and skills of some 19-year old in the US trying to get his CPR card from the Red Cross. When Fidel was very ill he immediately had a team of Spanish doctors and a full operating and recovery room flown in while his Dr Compadres changed the bed pan.

travisleemusic said...

First of all, sorry for the bad spelling in past posts but I have a contact lens issue. First of all you have seriously misrepresented the true statistics in Nicaragua. The writing is on the wall all over Latin America, these leaders are making a very positive difference. Nicaragua illiteracy rate has decreased greatly just as it did in the 80s. I think what you are doing is lying, this is not just a difference of opinion your statistics are a lie, its that simple.As far as people starving in Venezuela, if there is anyone starving in Venezuela then before Chavez there were millions and millions more starving according to the statistics.Sir,with your last post your completely out of tune with the people of not only Venezuela and Nicaragua but Latin America. Let me ask you , will Daniel Ortega win the next election? Time and time again the leftist wins and they are clearly serving the majority of the population.The period of 90-2006 of right wing rule saw nothing improve for the poor in Nicaragua, that's a fact and your numbers look much more characteristic of that period not Ortega's. Lastly, personally attacking my spelling is a way to personally put me down cause you know as well as I do your center right ideas have failed and these leftist leaders are making great strides and you have little to show for your ideas.The statistics all show nothing in your golden age of pro corporate Nicaragua.Travis

travisleemusic said...

Nicaragua's illiteracy rate is at 84 percent and dropping. This is much lower than the rate under 16 years of US backed right wing leaders. Once again the child malnutrition rate has dropped by 30 percent. Now, I will admit in terms of Infant Mortality Nicaragua is not where Cuba is which is lower than the U.S. but under Ortega's leadership they are getting there.

travisleemusic said...

One more thing, when we are referring to Ortega's adult literacy campaign, it was a success and has acheived its goal in regard to reducing ADULT illiteracy. Adult illiteracy was at 21 percent before the campaign and now is under 4 percent. The real question has to be posed to folks who champion those 16 years of center-right rule in Nicaragua, as to why the literacy gains of the 80s were not maintained but went the wrong direction. President Ortega being back in power has seen these statistics moving in the correct direction, illiteracy being but one area. So we have your 24 percent versus Ortega's under 4 percent and dropping.

Pat Patterson said...

I'm using WHO's numbers both for literacy, which includes all citizens not just those in primary to tertiary schools, and infant mortality which would be significantly lower if the figures on malnourishment were correct. So I have to ask where are these stats coming from as no reputable data bank show similar numbers? From the OAS to the OCED.

I don't know if Ortega will be reelected but he probably won't get any more than the 38% of the vote he got in 2006. Which means some 62% of the Nicaraguan people didn't want him as their leader.

travisleemusic said...

First of all, I misspoke earlier, what i meant to say was that the overall literacy rate is at 84 and in regard to the adult literacy campaign there has been a reduction from 24 percent under US backed right of center leaders such as Mr. Patterson likes, to under 4 percent and dropping under Ortega and the FSLN. So the overall illiteracy rate as well as the adult illiteracy rate have dropped. In addition, last year more children have graduated school than any other time in Nicaraguan history. I almost feel like Micheal Jordon playing basketball with a Middle school kid talking to you about this for when we talk literacy schools and education, i mean under the right wing Somoza Regime you favor, pre-1979 or the center right era from 90-2006 education was in terrible shape. I think the years of improvement whether in the 80s under threat of terrorism and an embargo or 2007 to the present of Sandinista rule has been the only time we see these gains period.You attacking Ortega on educating is like Larry Flint complaining the swim suit issues of sports magazine is too revealing.Lastly,on Ortega not getting a majority, neither did Clinton in 92 or Bush in 2000.Saying that I do admit Ortega is not winning as commanding of a majority as other leftist Latin leaders who are winning in some cases in landslides. I never said the FSLN was popular with the rich and they have had ups and downs with some middle class, but they have never lost their popularity with the poor, who feel very well served by them.

travisleemusic said...

So if Colin Powell or a third party candidate ran in the US who was strong, if the Republican won with 38 percent I'm sure you would find a way to call it legitimate. By your own measure then Chavez is that much more legitimate for he won in a landslide

Pat Patterson said...

Simple question where are your statistics coming from? Perhaps you shouldn't keep misspeaking and back tracking so much. Simple logic would say that that if the rate of literacy is the same now as before Mr Ortega became President then any improvement comes in such a small group that it simply hasn't affected the total numbers at all. UNESCO has clearly placed Nicaragua at 78% literacy and even there figures have, according to UNESCO and WHO, shown manipulation by preselecting those who are tested and how the other data is collected. Nicaraqua before 2006 literacy rates were determined by the UIS and UESCO but since the restoration the now report the statistics themselves. And yet still have produced any noticeable change in spite of collecting their own data.

Plus claiming I support right-wing dictators is simply a shabby way of feeling good about facts that contradict the numbers that the true believers hold even when confronted by reviewed ones. Or can I assume you have no problem with the various left wing dictators that have killed probably 100 times more people in the name of literacy and the people then some squalid oligarchy.

Pat Patterson said...

BTW, doesn't this rather prove the point that defenders of Chavismo only comment when their heroes or one of the satellites are criticized. That must get really boring only interested in trolling for only one topic.

tfhr said...

Travis,

Oh, the sun was in your eyes? Or your contacts weren't? Well, whatever, I'm glad you've worked it out but you have to admit there was some irony in your nearly illiterate diatribes about leftist literacy.

Please let us know where you're getting your data. I would like to take a look at that source material.

Here's story about the ongoing problem with food shortages in Venezuela:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/14/venezuela.international

I picked an article from The Guardian, because I recognize your affinity for things left leaning. Have fun and report back with your views on the subject.

I used to travel to Venezuela. I had friends down there and they would take me around the country and proudly point out the bounty that the country possessed. They recognized the problems and often expressed their frustrations over things that were not as good as they should be. It was usually a matter of corruption, as far as they were concerned, as to why many of the problems existed.

They were also very proud of their country's democratic traditions and most of all, they revered Simon Bolivar. Now they have a socialist dictator that is manipulating the constitution in an effort to install himself as Presidente for Life while he drives the economy into the ground, tramples the good name of Bolivar, exports drugs and violence, and turns the country into a basket case that cannot feed itself thanks to Chavism.

travisleemusic said...

Well I can see your running away from your conservative policies which everyone agrees failed. I think the 16 years of right of center privatization policies were a complete failure in all these countries. In regard to how many people leftist governments kill, I think when we look at Pinochet's Chile,Guatemala,the death squad government of EL Salvador, Batiste in Cuba, or Somoza in Nicaragua, the bulk of atrocities clearly came from the right.I have to assume but your silly criticism of Ortega, that your implying that the right wing Somoza regime, as well as the 16 years of right wing government who privatized everything but the kitchen sink, and that policy did nothing good , you have nothing to show your ideas did anything in Nicaragua but make the wealthy wealthier so we need to get that straight first before diving into you trying to question my well researched statistics. After the Contra terrorism you probably supported finally the F.S.L.N. was modestly voted out after a threat from Bush Sr. and we had 16 years of your ideas, nothing good coming from those ideas.The lies and false statistics are on your side of the political spectrum sir.

travisleemusic said...

90 percent of the atrocities in both the civil way in Nicaragua and El Salvador, were committed by the right wing. Even in Columbia, the Right Wing Paramilitary which is in bed with the Government is far more brutal than the FARC.

Pat Patterson said...

And yet from multiple postings not once have you cited any source for your statistics? That's what makes the argument look weak and akin to the popular front propaganda of the last 100 years.

BTW, I notice you didn't include The Shining Path or the Tupamaros in your listing of murderous cults.

travisleemusic said...

I hate quoted to you several statistics in child malnutrition and illiteracy as well as the fact that more school children have graduated than ever before. We can get deeper into the stats and I want to do that but we have a serious problem here. Your telling me that conservative party in Nicaragua is more popular than the F.S.L.N. is simply false. The F.S.L.N according to a recent poll by M and R Consultants Daniel Ortega at 47 percent favor rating and growing.The party is supported by 32 percent of the Nicaraguans and among those who call themselves independent, have the FSLN at 42 percent. However. your PLC Conservative Party is at 14 percent and the other party is at 7 percent.In other words, Mr. Patterson you are correct to point out that the F.S.L.N. doesn't command the majority of the peoples support, but who does? The one who represents your ideas is at 14 percent.
Lets look at what the polls says about the peoples perceptions of how Ortega is doing.67 percent of people think health care has improved and 61 percent think education has improved according to this polls. Now remember many poor don't have phones so the fact they are polling this well is impressive. Once again, though your conservative party is at 14 percent, i wouldn't call that a majority, what happened Mr. Patterson why have your ideas not gone over after the 16 years?

Pat Patterson said...

Yes, I am aware of what you quoted but you haven't indicated where the quotations have come from. I alluded to no polls but merely pointed out that Nicargua is ruled by a government that only did so because of a rule change. The point is I indicated where my numbers on literacy and infant mortality came from while you have not.

Pat Patterson said...

Yet travisleemusic, while not citing when his poll was taken, might be more than interested to find that M&R released polling data which showed by a slight majority Nicaraguans felt that they were better when the Somoza's ruled than under the Sandanistas. Oops!

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/35831/nicaraguans_ponder_if_things_were_better_with_somoza

travisleemusic said...

Sir, I don't know when the poll was taken your citing from M and R, but I know the ones I'm quoting from our very recent. Over 50 percent of people in Nicaragua and remember that underplays the FSLN support for many of their supporters don't have phones,but over 50 percent are fine with Ortega running again.The poll you cite would contradict this polls which says that in the areas of education and health care over 60 percent things are going very well. They do see Ortega as somewhat of a totalitarian but are overall happy with his leadership up to 47 percent of people that is compared to the small amount who would give your guys any support.I have a question? Your statistic that literacy according to the World Health Organization is at 68 percent can't be, and I was wrong as well. Mr. Patterson, the UN has listed Nicaragua as a illiteracy free country PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!

Pat Patterson said...

Then just check the link for when it was taken rather than stick you head in the sand. That's why I posted the link at the bottom of the page. If you disagree with the numbers I cited then provide links to contradictory ones. What branch has the UN listed Nicaragua as illiteracy free, the General Assembly, UNESCO, UNICEF? Actually the figure you cite was arrived at by the use of a Cuban methadology that has never been peer reviewed. Anyone can file a report with the UN, the Serbs do it all the time, then they refer back to it as a UN document or a UN endorsement. And after a little checking, you might try that, there is no record of UNESCO endorsing these findings rather they simply accepted them and then published there own figures of the stubborn 78% literacy rate. Now this, insteady of flackery from the Cubans, comes from the United Nations Development Report of 2009.
BTW, I also noted that the 68% figure was low when compared with the UNESCO figure but the CIA World Factbook quotes a much lower number based on census figures from both UNESCO and WHO.

Pat Patterson said...

i forgot to mention that on the UNESCO list Nicaragua ranks 129th and going back at least five years shows a slight decline but that could be accounted for by the continued migration of the more education wealthy and middle-class.

tfhr said...

Travisty,

The FARC are the good "terrorists"? Or are you saying they're just not as good a shot as the right-wing death squads? I seem to recall the FARC attacking Colombia's Supreme Court and kidnapping presidential candidates. Now there's a couple of rousing examples of their belief in the rule of law and the democratic process. Oh yeah, and financing their "struggle" with cocaine trafficking, and all the death and destruction that yields, is somehow overlooked as well.

Some how, in your mind anyway, the excess of a corrupt Somoza regime justifies an Ortega. You don't really care about the people that get crushed in the fight, do you? Let me guess: You think rather highly of Che Guevara too?

travisleemusic said...

That's an absolute lie! Nicaragua has not gone backwards in any of these categories and the polls don't lie and the elections don't lie.I'm not sure what your talking about in regard to UNESCO ranking Nicaragua 129th, the UN has been bending over backwards praising the gains in Nicaragua. I think your first numbers of 68 percent literacy are completely false. UNESCO's representative Dr. Arrien is reviewing and approving all these records. As of 2009 Nicaragua has been officially listed by the UN as an "illiteracy free Country.' The 68 percent literacy number is totally out of the ballpark you must be reading the rate before Ortega,well actually it was higher than that before Ortega. Lastly. let me repeat the party representing your views is at 14 percent according to the poll I cited.Add to that the fact that the same poll mentions that over 60 percent of people are very happy with Ortega when it comes to health care and nutrition so the poll reflects the facts. This poll is honest for it says over half of the people are fine with Ortega running again, but a little more than half think he has a totalitarian streak. SO its a balanced polls that backs up what the UN has been saying all along.Travis

travisleemusic said...

In edition UNESCO will also go along with the fact that the Sandinista Government has reduced Infant Mortality by 16.9 percent, This statement you made that the Infant Mortality rate has stayed in one spot is just fantasy on your part.Travis

travisleemusic said...

One other thing, you pointed out that you weren't sure whether Ortega will get elected or not but that 62 percent of people are against him. Well some truth to that, but there are over 60 percent of people who according the M and R Associates Poll may not like Ortega personally but admit hes improving health care and education. On the other hand what about your conservative party which is polling at 14 percent.That means 86 percent of people don't like your ideas.

Pat Patterson said...

Not one link to any supporting data or any contradiction of the links I provided. I would suggest that you learn how to use the internet to come to informed positions. Until then I think this discussion is fruitless. But it does reveal the absolute bareness of the modern day sandalista in that he simply can't form a coherent argument nor cite compelling facts and their sources.


Stick to Global Research or Alternet I think you'll be happier with people who share the same faith that you do!

travisleemusic said...

No sir your 68 percent illiteracy rate is a complete lie and a total contradiction for the UN has declared Nicaragua a Illiteracy Free country period. What your saying here is that the UN disagrees with itself, My links all justify what Im saying. Your party in Nicaragua is the PLC, they are at 14 percent.Your ideals failed in Nicaragua Mr. Patterson. Only 14 percent of Nicaraguans' back the conservative party.The M and R Associates poll also backs up that up to 60 percent of people are convinced that there has been a very significant improvement in health care and education. So not only do the statistics contradict you , not only do you have nothing to show for the 16 years your kind of government ran the place,but your out of touch with the opinion of the Nicaraguan people no all of the Ortega supporters who admit. that things have gotten better in those categories. No I'm not a fan of FARC and disapprove of their methods, I just find it funny the Right Wing Paramilitary who have literally chopped elementary school childrens heads off , rarely get mentioned by folks like you. No I respect Che but unfortunately I don't like the way his image is used, it reminds me of hyper capitalism . Let me ask you do you savor the legacy of your friends like the death squad Government of EL Salvador ARENA,Pinochet in Chile. Batiste. the Military right wing dictatorship in Guatemala, Somoza and on and on ?

Pat Patterson said...

Excuse me, links? You mentioned M&R with no date and no way to find the stats? I countered that with a specific poll and you refused to even look at it. I'll say it again, the 68% figure on literacy seems low while the 78% figure seems closer to reality and the only figure that UNESCO has published for over six years. Your claim of illiteracy free was also not linked and it doesn't show up on any UNESCO news release. You can assume all you want about who I support but that is not the issue when it appears that the Sandanistas and Ortega are unpopular within Nicaragua and will probably have to finesse the election to win.

This constant harping on who you imagine I support is the result of really having no factual argument other than relying on insult and all caps. And for the record I have no more admiration for Pinochet then I do for Abimael Guzmán or Che Guevara.

travisleemusic said...

Sir, you do have admiration for the privatization policies in Nicaragua under the PLC that were tried from 90-2006 and you have nothing to show good for that time in the areas of health nutrition and education. In fat things got worse. so while u may not have an admiration for Pinochet per say, you do have an admiration for many of the economic policies he favored as well as the policies of center right governments for 16 years in Nicaragua. Lastly, the UN has declared Nicaragua and Illiteracy free country that' a fact, I'm not sure what old statistics your looking at but I will personally call them and make sure there statistics are matching, for if you keep insisting on this number there is a big problem within the UN for they have made it absolutely clear that Nicaragua is an illiteracy free country. All my statistics are in fact backed up by the polls. If what your saying is true I think then your looking forward to a consevative victory, I'm seeing that Ortega is on his way to a smooth re election despite not being as good of a politican speaking wise as some of the others.OVER 60 PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE OF NICARAGUA SEE AN IMPROVEMENT SO YOUR STATISTICS DON'T MATCH UP WITH THE ATTITUDES OF THE PEOPLE WHICH BY THE SAME POLL WERE MUCH LOWER WHEN ORTEGA TOOK OFFICE SO YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN WHY THESE POLLS ARE MOVING IN A POSITIVE DIRECTION IF YOU DONT THEN YOUR TAKING THE POSITION ORTEGA WILL LOSE AND WASHINGTON WOULDN'T SEE EYE TO EYE WITH YOU ON THAT

Pat Patterson said...

Ok, obviously you didn't look at the link so here it is again. The current poll shows that by a slight majority Nicaraguans think that life was better under the dictator Somoza and they are also very unhappy that Ortega is trying to change the rules to allow himself a consecutive term while the Nicaraguan Constitution bans such an act.

http://tinyurl.com/39428ln

BTW, you might want to also look at the date the poll was taken as it is the most current poll available.

travisleemusic said...

OK once again Mr. Patterson, the M and R Associates poll shows that over half of people are not bothered by President Ortega's ability to seek another term just as your right wing buddy Uribe was able to do in Columbia. Secondly ,it is true that a slight majority think Ortega has a slight totalitarian streak, but that doesn't mean they want to go back to center right governments for even Sergio Ramirez, Eden Pastora as well as Bishop Obando, all three at certain points have had their criticisms of Ortega, admit he is far better than a PLC person like you like Mr. Patterson. Over 60 percent of people believe health care and education have improved under Ortega, that's what the polls, says. Now it is true some have tried to say Ortega is acting like Somoza in his overall leadership style, some who are critical are on the left. My point of improvement in the nation in health,nutrition and education is not frustrated by disagreements with Ortegas overall leadership style.

Pat Patterson said...

See now you're just outright fabricating. The M&R link I posted only talks about one question. The rest you are taking out of thin air. Why not provide a link to the poll you're using because it is not the one I posted from August 2, 2010?

Pat Patterson said...

here's the La Prensa poll from July of this year where it appears that the Nicaraguans are proclaiming that none of the candidates are trustworthy. But the FSLN trail the Indenpendents by over 6% and there is a plurality that reject all the institutions of government run by the FSLN.

http://tinyurl.com/24stsxb

And if you're not planning on providing any links then don't bother replying at all. BTW, Uribe did not get a second term as the people of Colombia voiced their disapproval and he accepted. Unlike Ortega who thinks that he couldn't possibly leave with some of that $520 million of Chavez's money unspent.

Pat Patterson said...

Shoot, here's the link; http://tinyurl.com/24stsxb

travisleemusic said...

No, but your poll conflicts with the M and R Associates Poll, I know the La Prensa Poll the older one two years ago showed FSLN 20 points down. Now the polls shows only 6 points so that momentum, So you stand with the idea that Ortega will lose, I'm glad I have you on record. Of course, the FSLN does have the confidence of the people according to the M and R Associates poll which i did cite thanks you .So you are making the statement that Ortega will lose, GLAD I GOT YOU ON RECORD. I will warn you the same thing was said about COrrea in Ecuador and Morales in Bolivia and were wrong.I have more info I want to cite, the group is certifying the literacy rate in Nicaragua, they are in that process now of making the declaration of an illiteracy free country official thats why your statistics are outdated.Travis

travisleemusic said...

Why are u creating a double standard, I Uribe put it to the people you say, as did Chavez, why is it ok for the people to disapprove of someone running again, yet in Chavez case the people want that and you say there's something wrong with it. Once again let me get down to the point, you have nothing to show in Latin America your ideas, that's why its so hard to get a conservative elected in Latin America/

Pat Patterson said...

Can you please provide a link to the poll you are referring too? Are you that clueless to realize that when you contradict someone just saying it's so doesn't make something so? Please just the link to the source of these improving numbers.

Pat Patterson said...

BTW, did you also find where I predicted the outcome of the World Series and the Oscars? I have some extra cash and missed my own predictions that Ortega would lose.

travisleemusic said...

Let me get you the M and R Associates Poll I will give you a link to that shortly. The UNESCO certification is still going on to official designate Nicaragua illiteracy free, I will get you a link to that as well,In regard to Ortega losing I mean everything you have said thus far would point to an Ortega, loss. Same things I heard about Morales of Bolivia and Correa of Ecuador who were just re-elected. I think the problem we have is conservatives not willing to admit that their fantasy that somehow if you leave everything up to the private sector all ships are lifted, just has problems in the real world. That's not to say the some conservative ideas can work at times. The FSLN is the most popular party in Nicaragua by far. However, that doesn't mean their 38 percent or so isn's a minority any more than your 14 percent for the PLC is not a majority.

Pat Patterson said...

but also the Sandanistas may simply ignore the polling and stay in power as witness this from, "Comandante Tomas Borge, the last living founder of the Sandinista National Liberation Front (FSLN), boldly stated earlier this year that the FSLN will be around for another 100 years. He said giving up power, as the party did when they were voted out of office in 1990, was a mistake that should never be repeated." No George Washingtons in Nicaragua it appears as the economy contracts another 2%.

travisleemusic said...

Ok you site the overall economy falling two percent,its amazing any of those poor countries are a float at all, look at our economy in the powerful USA. Secondly, its clear that whatever the state of the overall economy that in terms of health nutrition and education that over 60 percent of people feel things have gotten much better. It wasn't a mistake that the FSLN accepted the outcome, I think what Borge is saying is that it was a mistake for the country to choose the right wing candidate in 90 and in many ways it was. The importation of gobs of goods the people couldn't afford and the unemployment rates rose despite the overall economy being stabilized. As I have often said the center right policies failed on their own, the FSLN had trouble due to a war and embargo creating a state of emergency. Now back in power they are leading well.I wish Borge well, hes a great leader.

Pat Patterson said...

What ever happened to, "I will get you a link to that as well...?"

Borge was quite clear and you know that he wasn't talking about a voting mistake.

Pat Patterson said...

Yet the link I posted, and you have ignored from La Prensa and M&R clearly showed a slight majority felt that they were better off under Somoza than Ortega. The 60% figure claiming that the Nicaraguans, "... feel things have gotten much better," is a nonstarter.

Pat Patterson said...

Well, it's the 4th of September and almost a week since the promised links never appeared. This must like living in a socialist state where it is planned to do something but never actually done.