Downing Street has hit back at Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton for attacking the decision to release the Lockerbie bomber.I guess it's time for one of those "What did the President know and when did he know it?" sets of questions for Obama. It always seemed pretty unbelievable that the British would have taken such a step without letting the U.S. know ahead of time. And if they knew, how deep were those protests to prevent Scotland from going ahead?
President Obama and the US Secretary of State fuelled a fierce American backlash against Britain, claiming Abdelbaset Al Megrahi should have been forced to serve out his jail sentence in Scotland – but a senior Whitehall aide said their reaction was ‘disingenuous’.
British officials claim Mr Obama and Mrs Clinton were kept informed at all stages of discussions concerning Megrahi’s return.
(Link via Clarice Feldman)
27 comments:
Until we are given some clarity into the details regarding discussions between the United States and the UK's Gordon Brown, it will be hard to make the call, but then that seems to be the point of the current exercise in minimizing the issue.
What we can say is that for all of the complaints over American foreign policy this decade, we've never seen a breakdown like this with the UK.
British service members have died alongside Americans in battle in Afghanistan and Iraq and yet their government seems to think it can disengage from the fight selectively and our own national leadership appears to have been completely ineffective in preventing this from happening.
Our two nations are at war with a common set of enemies but Gordon Brown seems to think that getting access to Libyan oil fields is more important than keeping a state sponsor of terror bottled up and the President of the United States seems to have been either ineffective or conciliatory to Brown's arrangements.
At the very least, Obama should have offered to take the Libyan terrorist for safe keeping at Guantanamo where prostate cancer is not deemed to be a death sentence.
From the beginning Obama has given short shrift to the Brits as an ally. For some reason, he seems to favor annoying them as he did with the return of the Churchill bust and the gift of unplayable copies of his speeches.
We have continuing slights of our allies. Australia is no longer counting on the US. Israel is baffled by the foreign policy of thus administration. Honduras bears the brunt of the most misguided foreign policy I can remember. For most people, finding themselves on the side of dictators like Chavez and against a country's democratic application of it constitution, would indicate it is a time for a reevaluation of their position. No so for this administration.
It seems that if the objective was to destroy the US alliances and reduce our standing in the world, Obama could hardly do better. Unfortunately, most of us do not think that is a praiseworthy objective.
Rick
Rick
All of a sudden, folks here are concerned with what other countries think of us? I guess this joins reckless spending, socialism and death panels as policies that were okay under Bush but not Obama.
Yes, Mark, the blatant hypocrisy is amazing.
When important countries like France and Germany indicated in advance, that attacking Iraq would an unjustified error, Rumsfeld airly dismissed them as "old Europe". Noted aggressors here were very quick to endorse the costly years of failure in Iraq, and Bush's subsequent surrender (not so much talk of victory any more though).
Now, the ragged pants brigade is falling over themselves to emphasize the vital importance of listening to other countries. It seems it only matters when it can be used to criticize the president.
Aside from the fact that mark and Jaw Bone seem to be talking about something else it also appears that this present Labourite administration is not exactly the most trustworthy. It is highly possible, considering the recent NHS debacles, the contracts with Libya and the fact that they are blaming everyone else in the world for a recent string of books and studies that show how badly they have let down the British squaddies down in Iraq and Afghanistan, that they would simply lie to deflect criticism from themselves.
It should be noted that as of yet the British have not produced one single piece of evidence, other than honest we talked with the US, to bolster their position. And considering the leaky boat nature of the US no one has come forth on this side of the Atlantic either.
They made a deal and then were stunned to discover that the hoi polloi on either shore were livid about the deal. Now not only are they trying to deflect they are also grudginly admitting that their claim of thoroughly checking the sickness of Megrahi might also be a medical CYA.
OK,
so mark and Jaw Biddle are onboard and approve of the release of a man convicted in a court of law for killing 290 people.
Please tell us why you think killing Americans and other innocent travelers on that plane is just dandy with you today.
This just in:
"LONDON – Three British Muslims were convicted Monday of plotting to murder thousands by downing at least seven airliners bound for the U.S. and Canada in what was intended as the largest terrorist attack since Sept. 11.
A jury at a London court found Abdulla Ahmed Ali, 28, Assad Sarwar, 29, and Tanvir Hussain, 28, guilty of conspiracy to murder by detonating explosives on aircraft while they were in-flight."
It is expected that Ali and Sarwar, having a shared case of syphilis will be granted immunity due to the NHS's inability to treat the affliction and Hussain will be sent to Libya for treatment of his agonizing case of terminal dandruff. There was some discussion of trading Sarwar to Rwanda for consideration in advance of this year's negotiations to set prices for EU banana imports, but it was determined that splitting the couple up would create too much turmoil for the government. Prime Minister Gordon Brown was heard to remark, "It's only bananas, not something important, like tea or oil."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090907/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_airline_plot
Are you sure you won't entertain us with a spirited "Yes, we did too, win a huge victory in Iraq", t.?
You've been singing that victory song for more than 6 years. Now as our soldiers are kicked out by Iraqis, on Bush's surrender timetable, you've gone uncharacteristically quiet.
Some sense finally dripped into the old head, at last?
Jaw Biddle,
Most of what I've ever had to say about Iraq was given from the standpoint of having been there - unlike you. But even before I set foot in Iraq, I felt the necessity to speak out as people like you gave your best (or worst) to drive the mission down. You didn't care about the mission, it was about politics, specifically about winning the White House.
Well now your guy is in the White House, the lunatics of the left have all but dropped the stupid attacks on our troops. When was the last big anti-war protest you've seen? What of the small ones even? Do you suppose they've fallen out of favor because the target of the protest would have to be Barack Obama and his policies - all consistent with the Bush administration, with the notable exception of recent ROE changes in Afghanistan?
As much as you may hate the idea, there is a functional democracy in Iraq. It is independent and capable of conducting it's own foreign policy - not a puppet state. There isn't much else to say in these circumstances other than "I told you so".
Now that we're done dismissing Biddle yet again, let's get back to the topic: Is Obama "disingenuous" or a "liar"?
The answer is "certainly" and "yes". But there is more, of course.
The failure of twits like Biddle to see the irony in the lack of effective statesmanship between the UK and the US is not surprising because they could hardly be bothered to recognize it when it was functional. We're seeing a dangerous rift form here but I don't think it will exist for long as the current UK government is on it's way out. Gordon Brown will drive his party out of power in the next election and we'll see what the new government brings.
In the meantime, we have to try to figure out what the limits are to the incompetence of the State Department and the White House. Hillary's "reset" button didn't translate from English to Russian and apparently our new foreign policy doesn't translate to English either.
Let's talk about your honesty for a second, tfhr. Where did you find anything to draw this conclusion?
"mark and Jaw Biddle are onboard and approve of the release of a man convicted in a court of law for killing 290 people."
Because we pointed out that people here were saying during the Bush admin. that we should act without concern for what our allies think. As for the release, I hope Obama and Clinton expressed nothing but opposition. Nobody here has proved otherwise.
You seem to think your military service allows you to say anything you like, including blatant lies. (Maybe I should archive this latest quote because you'll probably deny it soon enough. I would think that, if you are proud of your service to the country (which you seem to be given how often you bring it up), you would be especially careful to act honorably and be honest. No such luck today! Maybe next time.
I think I saw that movie - An officer and a dirtbag. Gets free medical care all his life, and the same for all his ragged dependents; free clothing, and all the chow he can pork down. All at taxpayer expense, free foreign holidays on FOBs, thinks it means he knows something. Noted he still doesn't quite have the temerity to declare Iraq-as-puppet-state-of-Iran, as a "victory" though.
Thanks, t. We'll let you know when your insights/lies are needed.
mark,
You could have said anything you wanted in your opening remark in this thread but you wasted it on some lame attack against a former President. This thread is about the current President and you could not defend his actions or lack thereof, on the matter of deterring the release of a convicted terrorist that murdered scores of Americans. You could not be bothered to condemn either act, the terrorist attack or the release of said terrorist.
I'm willing to wait until I hear more from the White House before I wade into a complete evaluation of Barack Obama's administration and how it has handled the matter. If you look at my opening remark, the very first line says this:
"Until we are given some clarity into the details regarding discussions between the United States and the UK's Gordon Brown, it will be hard to make the call,...."
I then spoke to the apparent breakdown of cooperation between two governments. If you'd like to deny that US-UK relations are rockier now than at any time during the last ten years, be my guest.
But let's get back to your first remark. The absence of any criticism of the shameful release of a terrorist convicted of murdering hundreds of innocent civilians spoke loudly on your behalf. It was clearly not a priority item of interest for you then but now that you are embarrassed, I see that you are back peddling on that but not before Jaw Biddle took your lead and chimed in to the ridiculous cacophony with his own bizarre view of Iraq to add to your Bush "death panel" delusion.
How about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama? Clinton has been badly marginalized in her role as Secretary of State. Every once in a while they'll let her travel to some third world back water where she will be asked questions about what her husband thinks. It's only a matter of time before she breaks ranks with Obama to launch her next run at the Presidency. She'll be Ted Kennedy to Barack's Carter, after all, Obama is serving Carter's second term. You can quote that one too.
During the Bush administration the British were clearly on our side in this fight. Now you've got Gordon Brown trading terrorists for access to oil. Seems to me that the much maligned Bush foreign policy was good enough to keep the Brits on the straight and narrow but now they've seen fit to blow us off. Unless, of course, you think Obama approved of Brown's travesty.
mark, don't talk about honor and other people, you're in over your head.
Jaw Biddle,
Your hatred of people the dare to differ from you in opinion has rendered you impotent in these threads. I do get a kick out of watching you wallow in it though.
tfhr,
I'll steal your quote: Produce evidence or stfu. I'll go one better: Show the quote in which I said that I support the release, apologize or stfu. A person with honor would apologize. Given your unrepentant joking of a dying/dead man (and calling him a bastard the day he died), I won't hold my breath for any of the three options. But please stop bringing up your military service. When you hide behind the uniform to make the despicable comments of late, you're dishonoring all the men and women serving our country with decency and integrity.
Please tfhr - tell us all clearly, directly, honestly, how you believe that the Iraq fiasco was a great victory for the United States, a worthwhile expenditure of trillions of taxpayer dollars, and thousands of American lives.
You were a bobbysoxer cheerleader for this GOP war for 6 years. Tell us how well you think Iraq all worked out for Americans. Please do. Tell how it is not a giant expensive GOP clusterfrick. Tell us how great was the victory that you and the other fobbits secured. Because I just can't hear that so clearly from you.
"During the Bush administration the British were clearly on our side in this fight."
Ah. There's your problem, t. The British objected in their millions to the Bush aggression.
Tony Blair was briefed that Bush was determined to invade Iraq on whatever pretext he could gin up. Blair wrongly calculated that not even Bush jr could screw it up, so he signed on for a share of the spoils. Turns out Blair was wrong. Jr could and did screw it up. No help from you.
Jaw Biddle and mark,
You're both stuck in 2006 and still seething with anger over the fact that Bush beat your guys TWICE! This was never about the war against terror for you - it was about the fight to get the White House.
Well, now you're in and your guy doesn't have a clue on most things but fortunately he has stayed the course with Bush's policies in Iraq and for the most part in Afghanistan. I wish him great success in this fight as it is very important for our country. I have not heard either of you explain why Obama is wrong to continue on the same path that was set before him when he took office.
Didn't Obama say that he would pull us out immediately? Are you upset at him for not doing so? Don't take you anger over Obama's domestic failure and foreign policy flubs out at me. It does no good. Focus your attention on where he is succeeding and support that. Ask yourself why Obama kept Gates? Why is Petraeus commanding CENTCOM? Stumped? It's because they are winning. You should start supporting that.
mark,
I know you hate that the military is rife with people that support the mission. You just can't get over the fact that we are proud to serve and we believe in this mission. We don't even mind that our labor protects pinheads like you so that you may sneer and snipe safely from the sidelines.
The evidence that I needed for my claim was your own words - and lack thereof - regarding the topic scenario of this particular posting by Betsy. You had no criticism in your opening remark for the release of a mass murdering terrorist and no question as to why it would have happened if our State Department and President were doing their respective jobs. You were ready to give them a pass and quickly sought to distract from their MIA status by harking back to your glory days of 2006. Biddle is still ignoring the release of the Lockerbie bomber, at least I got you to back peddle eventually.
But there's the problem - for eight years all you did was carp, complain and criticize. Now you're on defense and you don't like it ~ WHAAAAAAAAAA!
I'll give you some credit though for harking back only about four years when so many left wing nut jobs seem to be perpetually stuck in the 1960s. So kudos for trying to keep up but you're still lagging behind, so pick up the pace.
Lets start by looking at last week: Why didn't the US succeed in preventing the release of a man that was involved in the murder of so many Americans? Aren't you curious where the breakdown occurred? No, you'd rather offer up your typical, knee jerk chorus of boos for Bush. How utterly useless and impotent.
One more thing: I don't remember calling Kennedy a "bastard" on the day he died. Have you got a thread date-time-group to show for that? Better check that date if you think you do. I will admit a readiness to use that tag for the other 364 days of the year but I think you over reached on that one.
I'm really surprised you dug Kennedy up for this pathetic effort to attack me. Frankly, I'm even more surprised that you were able to get him as I know his colleagues in the party are busily using his body for selling a "health care/insurance/something reform" scam.
What's left for you? You've played the Bush card, you've thrown down the Kennedy Death card, aren't you reaching for the race card now? Is that next?
Biddle brought his dance card - he seems to be waltzing right along with you in this thread. You can't be happy about that but there he is - lock step). Watching you two is like observing a performance of the Berkeley Synchronized Epileptic Team - you don't really want to see it but the spectacle is too bizarre to ignore.
Shouldn't that be the "Berkeley Synchronized [Tourette's] Team?
Quite true, but mark and Biddle don't have the knack for original commentary, therefore they can only hope to attain that level of civility and decorum.
Well, while t spews his childish insults, he still completely fails to insist that we "did, too, win a great victory in Iraq".
At least we can see he has been cured of thinking attacking Iraq was a good idea. He insisted it was for more than 6 years, but finally accepted that progressives were right, and the Iraq war was a costly fiasco without a useful purpose for the US. Losing a war will do that to you.
Jaw Biddle,
I don't agree with you on anything - never have - on the basis of what you've ever said here.
I know it pains you that a democratic government now exists in Iraq. I know it pains you that Bush was right with his surge when all of the naysayers were sure it would fail. I just don't know why you feel that way but I also don't know why lemmings jump off cliffs, why people read Kos, or why David Hasselhof is popular in Germany, but I do fine nevertheless.
By the way, that alternate "reality" you live in where the US has lost in Iraq, have you ever asked any Marines or soldiers there about losing in Iraq? You should come to DC and we'll visit FT Meyer and Quantico so we can ask around for you.
One last question about your alternate reality life: Have you ever found the time to condemn the release of the Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset Al Megrahi? No? Why not? Or is BP's interest in Libyan oil reason enough for you? C'mon, you were shouting "No blood for oil" for years, where are you and your army of sock puppets now?! Could you have been lying about that "No blood for oil" meme or was it just a case of being "disingenuous", like Whitehall says about Obama and Clinton?
That's odd considering at the close of tfhr's 3rd paragraph from his 11:08 comment he clearly states, "It's because they are winning. You should start supporting that." Which is clearly referring to Iraq and Afghanistan. Or perhaps as usual Jaw Bone et al, didn't bother to read the whole comment and just lied about its content.
Um, the surge did fail, t. The surge's strategic goal was to create space for political reconciliation. Do you see that happening in Iraq, at all? Do all those bombs going look like success to you?
Last question: why do you want the American taxpayer to foot the bill for the form of govt in Iraq? If we can afford that, we sure as hell can afford free govt. health care for everyone, just the same as you get.
I'm glad to see that you are still not able to spit out the words "Iraq was a huge and worthwhile success for all Americans, and we should definitely repeat it as often as we can". You're too young to know anything about Vietnam, but if we have many more "successes" like Vietnam and Iraq, we won't have an army at all.
By the way - I condemn the release of the Lockerbie bomber. That guy should never have been released. Just amazing what corrupt governments will do to keep the oil flowing.
Hooray! Jaw Biddle has finally condemned the release of Megrahi. And with his reference to Gordon Brown's collusion with the Libyan government to free their terrorist and the Obama administration's dicey efforts on the matter, he has nearly addressed the actual topic of Betsy's post for the very first time.
This was truly a landmark event and we should all take note of it.
Now back to swatting the flies...
Biddle is in stark opposition to Barack Obama, for once, but since the President is not the only one that agrees that the surge was a success, we can probably chalk it up to our favorite troll's tenuous grasp on reality, rather than a principled difference of opinion.
Here is President Obama declaring the success of the surge:
"...I think the surge has succeeded...."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udt92OwPOgs
Biddle, the clip is only 34 seconds long, so even your gnat-like attention span and unwillingness to read or listen past the talking points can be accommodated here. Click on the link and see, as well as hear, the truth. Let Obama help you, Biddle.
Finally, I do remember Vietnam. I remember my father departing from March Air Force Base for the first leg of his trip. He was a pilot and I got to go aboard the aircraft, as he would be flying it to Travis AFB for the next leg of the trip. From that point he would be away from us for a year while he served at Tan Son Nhut Air Base near Saigon. We got a few calls from him via the MARS system and we swapped small reel to reel tapes that would arrive in the mail at our Torrance, California home. That would be our existence without him for a year.
I remember him returning on commercial air via LAX. He was the first off the plane and proudly in uniform. We were asking ourselves if he would be wearing it given the aggressive and belligerent nature of "peace" protesters. We were ecstatic to have him back once again but we didn't yet know that Agent Orange had already taken hold.
Talk to me about what I know and don't know about Vietnam, Biddle, but don't suppose that you know much more than I do. Given your propensity to proclaim one thing or another here, regardless of the facts on the given matter, the last thing you need to do is to assume your way into a war or the lives of family members that have lived through it.
On a happier note, my father's cancer seems to have been cured. We are very grateful that he did not take the VA's clean bill of health as the final word. While he was organizing a health fair for other veterans in his community, he participated in testing that the other veterans would receive at the fair, though he had been seen at the VA a few weeks earlier.
These second tests indicated that he had cancer. Follow-up uncovered that the VA had not read his test results but that of another patient. We do not know to this day if another healthy patient was incorrectly informed that they had cancer.
Most importantly, my father benefited from access to the best private medical care in the world. I don't know what would have happened if he would have had only the VA to depend upon. The cure rate for his cancer is significantly higher in the United States than in any other country.
In the end, the VA judged that he had a 100% service related disability. I guess someone like you would figure that just equates to "free" money, just like his "free" health care. If you don't know what that status means, you should find out. Better still, you should get to know some veterans, particularly since you don't know anyone that is active duty. I know you're very fond of reading foreign language news papers but you really should take a few moments away from your $350K/year job and meet some real people that put their lives on the line to protect your country and your right to live the life of a free man.
I see that mark bailed out of this thread but Biddle's chute seems to be streaming. Jaw Biddle, you might want to deploy your reserve - that's the ground coming up on you fast!
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