When handfuls of Code Pink ladies disrupted congressional hearings or speeches by BushIn those nightmare days of the Bush presidency, it was considered perfectly fine for organizations such as ACORN or unions to organize people to turn out in protest against Bush policies. Now, if word is sent out via the internet to organize turnout, it's just considered fakery and the protesters' complaints worth nothing.
administration officials, it was taken as evidence that the administration's policies were unpopular, and that the thinking parts of the populace were rising up in true democratic fashion.
Even disruptive tactics aimed at blocking President Bush's Social Security reform program were merely seen as evidence of boisterous high spirits and robust, wide-open debate. On May 23, 2005, the Savannah Morning News reported:
“By now, Jack Kingston is used to shouted questions, interruptions and boos. Republican congressmen expect such responses these days when they meet with constituents about President Bush's proposal to overhaul Social Security.
“Tinkering with the system is always controversial. To make Bush's plan even more so -- political foes are sending people to Social Security forums armed with hostile questions.
By now, Kingston, a Savannah lawmaker and part of the GOP House leadership, has held 10 such sessions and plans at least seven more.”
On March 16, USA Today reported that Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum "was among dozens of members of Congress who ran gantlets of demonstrators and shouted over hecklers at Social Security events last month. Many who showed up to protest were alerted by e-mails and bused in by anti-Bush organizations such as MoveOn.org and USAction, a liberal advocacy group. They came with prepared questions and instructions on how to confront lawmakers."
This was just good, boisterous politics: "Robust, wide-open debate." But when it happens to Democrats, it's something different: A threat to democracy, a sign of incipient fascism, and an opportunity to set up a (possibly illegal) White House "snitch line" where people are encouraged to report "fishy" statements to the authorities.
More significantly, most of these people are turning out to protest for the first time in their lives, and they're planning for future political involvement in years to come. Perhaps that's what's got the critics worried.Conservatives, myself included, have been having a lot of fun with the Democrats' dismay at people speaking their minds at townhalls or taking to the streets to protest the growth of the federal government that we've been witnessing in recent years. While I condemn any of the extremes that a handful of individuals have gone to with lynching profiles, threats of violence, or shouting down congressmen and preventing them from answering questions, there still is a lot of irony in those people who praised community organizers a few months ago now getting their panties in a wad about senior citizens showing up to complain about the Democrats' health care plans.
It's true, of course, that conservative and libertarian organizations -- ranging from former House Speaker Newt Gingrich's American Solutions to FreedomWorks and Americans for Prosperity -- are getting involved and providing advice and support, just as numerous lefty groups have always done with left-leaning movements.
But, as I noted in an April 15 column in The Wall Street Journal, those groups were playing catch-up to a movement that was already rolling on its own.
The truth is that for my adult lifetime, "protest" has been a kind of Kabuki engaged in by organized groups on the Left with help from the press -- as in the recent bus tour of AIG executives that was organized and paid for by an ACORN affiliate and in which the protesters were heavily outnumbered by the media, who nonetheless generally treated it as an "authentic" expression of populist discontent.
Things like that tour led President Obama to warn bankers that he was the only thing standing between them and the pitchforks, one of a number of thuggish statements he's made along these lines. (links in original)
As always, Mark Steyn has more fun than anyone in ridiculing this sudden dismay at community organizing.
DISSENT IS THE HIGHEST FORM OF PATRIOTI… No, wait, that bumper sticker expired January 20th. Under the stimulus bill, there's a new $1.3 trillion bills-for-bumpers program whereby, if you peel off old slogans now recognized as environmentally harmful ("QUESTION AUTHORITY"), you can trade them in for a new "CELEBRATE CONFORMITY" sticker, complete with a holographic image of President Obama that never takes his eyes off you.Oops. Perhaps the Emperor does indeed have no clothes and that is why those who point it out must be demonized as being too fashion conscious.
"The right-wing extremist Republican base is back!" warns the Democratic National Committee. These right-wing extremists have been given their marching orders by their masters: They've been directed to show up at "thousands of events," told to "organize," "knock on doors" …
No, wait. My mistake. That's the e-mail I got from Mitch Stewart, Director of "Organizing for America" at BarackObama.com. But that's the good kind of "organizing." Obama's a community organizer. We're the community. He organizes us. What part of that don't you get?
When the community starts organizing against the organizer, the whole rigmarole goes to hell. Not that these extremists showing up at town hall meetings are real members of the "community." Have you noticed how tailored they are? Dissent is now the haut est form of coutur ism. Senator Barbara Boxer has denounced dissenters from Obama's health care proposals as too "well-dressed" to be genuine. Only the Emperor has new clothes. Everyone knows that.
47 comments:
I think it was also Mark Steyn that said he was investing in razor blades to capitalize on sales as liberals rushed to scrape off their "Question Authority" bumper stickers.
Honest reasoned dissent is patriotic.
Forming mobs, parading with swastikas, and disrupting public meetings should get you arrested.
Why are wingnuts choosing the mob approach, not the honest reasoned discussion approach?
I think it's because they lack honesty, they lack reason, and most of all, they lack alternative ideas. Defeated by the majority of Americans at the ballot box, they choose terrorist tactics.
Biddle,
"terrorist tactics"?
You are officially unhinged.
By the way, moonbats from Moveon.org and Code Pink were sporting swastikas for eight years as they attacked the Bush Administration. Remember Bushitler? Were you complaining about that? Nope.
You're getting the low dose of your own medicine and you can't handle it, nor can you provide a single link to support your claims of violence, Nazi regalia, etc.
Instead you trot out the tired tactic of attacking your favorite politician's critics. It's not working, its just ticking people off that wouldn't normally get involved in politics but medical care is too close to home, so they are asking questions, but neither you or a lot of our "lawmakers" don't seem to understand that maligning these people will just make them angry.
Check out the Sunday cartoon at Day by Day:
http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/
Pretty much sums up the dissent "problem".
"the thinking parts of the populace" vs the rubes who voted for the One hoping for change, now they could only hope for the chump change the One may allow them to have after he worked them over.
Yeah, it's really ticking me off. I'm not having fun with these allegations at all. I'm insulted, and I'm sure there are millions like me. This is going to backfire, I sure.
I've been an armchair activist up until now, but this weekend I've finally signed up as a volunteer for a political campaign. Happy, BB?
Can anyone tell me, what evidence is there that we're being paid or bussed in? None at all. Yet it's repeated over and over and minds like BB's of course eat it up with a spoon. The Nazi charge? I've seen one pic of a home-made sign that had a "no" symbol over a swastika - and this is "Nazi regalia?"
Very very insulting.
It's reasonable to describe threats of shooting at public meetings as "terrorist tactics".
If you want to own that, and explain it, go ahead. It seems like the right just can't find anything too extreme.
Biddle,
If you want to document that, explain it, go ahead. It seems your fanciful charge that the opposition to Obamacare has resorted to "terrorist tactics" is ridiculous.
apparantly the republican definition of freedom of speech is to go to meetings and make sure that non-republicans are not allowed to speak
and, please, by all means, adduce for us actual incidents of democratic mobs shutting down entire meetings
Dissent will always be patriotic. FWIW, I drove by a healthcare protest yesterday. About 25 - 30 people who had obviously driven themselves to the site (a usually empty parking lot was full). I slowed down to read the signs - all reasonable except for one that seemed to be making to make a joke about Obama "enSLAVEing" us. (I didn't realize slavery jokes are in.)
But it cuts both ways. The whining by some dems is hypocritical, but the words used against Obama (and condoned by many here) are proof of the fake outrage by the right during the Bush years. Many used to hide behind the troops to say that any criticism of Bush was betraying or "spitting on our troops". But I don't remember one person blaming the troops for lying us into a war, condoning war-profiteering and torture.
One difference now is that the lies about euthanasia and socialism are being helped out by leaders of the republicans. Even the birthers have been aided by supposedly intelligent people. I don't remember any congressman lending support to 9/11 conspiracy theorists.
Now we've got Sarah "Leave my kids alone" Palin once again exploiting Trig to make an absurd and outrageous accusation (She should have named the child "Prop"). So a former vp-candidate accuses the president of "pallin' around with terrorists" and infanticide. And that is somehow acceptable?
I would be far more impressed with Bill"s observations here if he had linked to at least one credible source for the rumors he asserts are facts.
But he didn't; he's just trolling.
With reporters, photographers, and videographers from the NYT, San Francisco Examiner the Washington Post, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN and the AP, you would think at least one unphotoshopped picture of a swastika would be all over the web -- or at least in Huffington, Kos, or some other Obama tilting blog.
TV,
Because you asked for it (and apparently because you have a very short memory or lack even a germ of objectivity in your body):
"Minuteman Project founder Jim Gilchrist was attacked by angry, violent protesters last night who stormed the stage during his speech at Columbia University in New York City, forcing an abrupt end to the event".
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8e1_1190664805
Seriously TV, copy and paste that link and jog your memory as leftist respect for freedom of speech has a banner day on a UNIVERSITY campus! (Bonus points for every utterance of the word "racist" that you can count)
mark,
You're back and you brought your "birthers" with you again!
You are obsessed and need I say, the primary source for all mention of that group here in these threads.
Need a member of Congress that supported the 9-11 conspiracists out there?
I give you Cynthia McKinney, Democrat from Georgia, who "accused Republicans on Thursday of exploiting the memory of Sept. 11, 2001, for political gain and REPEATED HER IMPLICATION that truths about the attacks remain untold".
"The DeKalb County Democrat, who is running to reclaim the 4th District congressional seat, was voted out two years ago after making controversial comments about the Sept. 11 attacks during a radio interview. SHE IMPLIED THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION NEW THE ATTACKS WERE COMING BUT DID NOTHING TO PREVENT THEM."
http://www.911truth.org/profile.php?profile=20080831231745119
That link is from a "truther" site that regards their fellow flake as something of a heroic figure.
Growing tired of your race card blowing up in your face? You didn't play it this time (I'm not counting your slavery joke) but you couldn't stay away from the old faithful "Bush Lied" meme.
Hillary Clinton supported Bush. Do you want the list of other Senators and Congressmen that voted to support the resolution granting Bush authority to use force? I keep a link ready just for you. Really mark, you need to stop living in that lie - it makes you look pretty stupid.
Troops in battle v. Town Hall meetings that scare Congressmen, yeah, that's exactly the same thing.
As for your assessed "fake outrage by the right during the Bush years", I can tell you from personal experience that the outrage was anything but fake. Your little witty attempt at humor where you compared dead American soldiers with a fish kill has not been forgotten.
Didn't Bill just recently refer to Rumsfeld and Bush as war criminals? How exactly do ad hominem attacks fit into "...honest reasoned dissent?" Except when Bill and the other acolytes of good manners notice that they can certainly dish it out but taking it requires more intestinal fortitude than available.
Biddle,
I forgot to mention this earlier before you went off into hysterics:
You said the opposition to Obamacare "lacked alternative ideas". I've heard plenty put out here in these threads but Charles Krauthammer puts it together best in this column:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer080709.php3
(Don't let that Jewish World thing scare you - it's not a conspiracy - it's just a great site for reading conservative columnists)
A couple of key Krauthammer points:
"(1) Tort reform: As I wrote recently, our crazy system of casino malpractice suits results in massive and random settlements that raise everyone's insurance premiums and creates an epidemic of defensive medicine that does no medical good, yet costs a fortune."
"(2) Real health-insurance reform: Tax employer-provided health-care benefits and return the money to the employee with a government check to buy his own medical insurance, just as he buys his own car or home insurance."
"There is no logical reason to get health insurance through your employer. This entire system is an accident of World War II wage and price controls. It's economically senseless. It makes people stay in jobs they hate, decreasing labor mobility and therefore overall productivity. And it needlessly increases the anxiety of losing your job by raising the additional specter of going bankrupt through illness."
Read the article and ask yourself why (hint: the answer is in there) the Dems have fail to address these two very simple yet crucially important points.
I look forward to a rational response.
I already posted a link to a photo of rightwingers carrying a swastika sign to a health care meeting.
Here's the link
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/97283/thumbs/s-FTCOLLINS-large.jpg
The photo was taken in Fort Collins, Colorado, at a protest staged outside the office of democratic Rep. Betsy Markey.
Here's Limbaugh serving his audience of highly-educated aesthetes his views on swastikas:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/rush-limbaugh-compares-new-health-care-logo-to-nazi-swastika.html
Here's a news report of a congressman who received a death threat over health care:
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/1178311.html
Here's a report of the threat to bring guns to healthcare meetings. http://newmexicoindependent.com/33520/local-libertarian-advocates-retaliation-be-it-verbal-or-physical-at-health-care-town-halls
What do you think about Sarah Palin's wild and reckless lie that "Obama will create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans"? Newt Gingrich is supporting her ridiculous claim.
Biddle, TV, & mark,
Have you talked with your Congressman lately?
You might be surprised at the response you get if you ask the "wrong" question.
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/07/video-democrat-screams-at-constituent-for-asking-tough-question-on-health-care/
Biddle, when you become a Congressman and a doctor from your district wants to ask you a question about health care, I hope you'll treat him better.
PS ~ It doesn't help to run from the local TV news station either.
You got me regarding McKinney, tfhr. I forgot about her.
And I remember the outrage against her. Strange how that type of behavior is now acceptable by the right.
It doesn't matter to me who else supported the war in Iraq. It was wrong.
And yes, I'll keep bringing up the birthers, just as you keep bringing up moveon. Easy targets.
mark,
If you want to equate birthers with Moveon.org, I'll take that offer.
McKinney is easily forgettable, I'll grant you that but only for our penchant to want to forget how poorly our elected representatives perform. Especially the insane ones.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say about any current left vs. right comparisons with McKinney. You'll have to explain.
Biddle,
The comment from Limbaugh cited in that LA Times article was this:
"Limbaugh then proceeded to describe the ways Democrats are like Nazis -- a list that included their dedication to animal rights and their opposition to smoking and pollution.
'Well, the Nazis were against big business -- they hated big business. And of course we all know that they were opposed to Jewish capitalism. They were insanely, irrationally against pollution. They were for two years mandatory voluntary service to Germany. They had a whole bunch of make-work projects to keep people working, one of which was the Autobahn. They were against cruelty and vivisection of animals, but in the radical sense of devaluing human life, they banned smoking. They were totally against that. They were for abortion and euthanasia of the undesirables, as we all know, and they were for cradle-to-grave nationalized healthcare'."
If Limbaugh is saying anything about Nazi Germany that is not true, then let me know what it is and then let me know which of the programs or characteristics he mentions that cut against your grain.
Are you anti-smoking?
Are you for animal rights?
If you said, "Yes!", then I say, "good for you". It doesn't make you a Nazi anymore than a penchant for make work projects or a zealous stance on pollution. It's the socialist component that begins to cross the line and if you remember, the Nazi Party was absolutely socialist.
Your photo link to the dangerous woman with a purse and a poster with a swastika circled and struck through suggests to me that she does not approve of swastikas. Did you notice that she also has a ? mark on the poster, so I guess that leaves us to draw our own conclusions. I see one person standing there with her purse and a question. You see a violent, life-threatening, gun for hire mob.
Take a look at this web site if you want to see how the latter is achieved:
http://www.zombietime.com/
This link has lots of swastikas:
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_february_16_2003/
They even have one of you:
http://thumbsnap.com/v/AgiHs7ca.jpg
( I call it "Biddle ~ Wasted Waisted Youth") Nice hat though, do you still have it?
It's not my job to defend Limbaugh nor does he need the help. But I have to ask you what you think of that Obamacare symbol. Don't you think the personal connection between a politician and a federal program like that is a little cult-ish?
Your "death-threat" link is a crock. Rep. Brian Baird doesn't want to face his constituents and instead plans to do a random phone call town hall where he dials "random" numbers and gets to pick the questions he wants and then post his answers on a website.
http://columbian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090806/NEWS02/708069952
I think he should take his complaint to the police if it has any merit but thus far he hasn't done that. I wonder why.
The only instance of violence I've seen so far was directed at a black conservative by SEIU members supporting Carnahan at his town hall meeting. The police had to make some arrests.
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/tea-party-protesters-attacked-1-man.html
Here's a helpful hint for incumbents that want to hear out their constituency and keep their jobs: Don't dismiss them as nuts. There are few things more personal than health care so you have to expect that many people will take the matter very seriously and it will become emotional. Dems wanted to get involved in this and now they're getting a lot of push back. Stop vilifying your constituents! Stop being arrogant simply because you've got a majority in the national legislature. The polls show that Americans are losing confidence in what has been billed as "Obamacare" and it will do to him what "HillaryCare" did to Bill Clinton in 1994. It's time to listen.
tfhr, try this link:
http://www.google.com/m/news?ned=us&q=jim+gilchrist+minuteman+columbia#
"Your search - jim gilchrist minuteman columbia - did not match any documents."
TV,
Not sure what's up with the link. Use this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNXmy0e5fc
It only has the assault on the stage but you can go to the Livelink.com URL for the story. Just click on the hyper link at "More". http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8e1_1190664805
Look for this:
"Protesters storm stage at Columbia University (WND photo)
Minuteman Project founder Jim Gilchrist was attacked by angry, violent protesters last night who stormed the stage during his speech at Columbia University in New York City, forcing an abrupt end to the event.
An African-American member of the Minuteman board who spoke prior to Gilchrist was taunted with the "n-word," according to W More..ND columnist Jerome Corsi."
Read the whole story.
There is more here on another YouTube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyVm8rKvmQg&feature=related
If your post was to inform me of a problem with the link I provided, thank you. If your Google search result is a suggestion that the event did not occur, you are wrong. Visit the YouTube links.
Columbia University president Lee Bollinger stated in a campus-wide email that "No one ... shall have the right or the power to use the cover of protest to silence speakers."
eagerly awaiting a similar declaration from a member of the republucan party re the silencing of congressmen by an ugly, violent mob bent on supression of free speech
apparantly it angers tfhr when somebody who george bush called a vigilante is treated with disrespect, but he finds the same behavior in a number of meetings being held by democratic congresspeople to be commendable
TV,
Well I guess the violent leftist radicals didn't get Bollinger's email. Really TV, what a heroic stance for free speech.
If Bush called Gilchrist a vigilante, that's Bush's problem, but as with most politicians in DC, failing to secure our borders has not helped security and it also puts increased stress on the health care system.
You seem to make the fundamental mistake of trying to boil this down to a contest between political parties. Biddle always goes off track with that and usually cannot make a coherent argument for that very reason.
Those people at the town hall meetings are not there because they're Republicans. They're there because they've got no confidence in government managed health care. I'd imagine that there are quite a few Democrats that don't see eye to eye with their representatives right now either. As an Independent, I can tell you that I'm not happy with either party and do not trust one to do better than the other when it comes to my health care. That's between me and my doctor. No politicians needed.
How did the left get to be so reactionary?
Wow, look at those goal posts race across the landscape! What a sight, TV.
tfhr,
Regarding my comment (and your denial) about fake outrage during the Bush years:
You and others have repeatedly passed when asked about Bush's "Nope, no WMDs here" video. The man who ordered our troops into harm's way joked about the failure of the mission even while soldiers were getting killed.
We all make stupid comments. I already apologized for my stupid joke about Bush being responsible for killing soldiers. You've chosen to stand by your flippant comments about soldiers getting contamininated water. Fine.
But please explain to me why you weren't offended by Bush's schtick, which was a planned effort that took time to plan, execute and present. Apparently, not one person stopped and said, "Bad idea, guys".
I wonder if the families of the soldiers killed while looking for WMDs thought it was funny.
mark,
I can comment anyway I like about the water I was drinking.
As for a dumb remark by Bush, I think that is small stuff compared to his face to face meeting with wounded soldiers and the family members of the dead. He's been with them.
Your fish joke still smells.
The fact that he could make that video after spending time with families of troops he sent on a failed mission is all the more callous.
A dumb remark by Bush? The "Bring it on" statement was a dumb remark. This was a well-planned video. Small stuff? Joking about soldiers risking their lives on a futile mission.
Obviously, you're free to make any comments about the water you like, but it exposes how shallow your protests really are.
Once again, you've betrayed the troops with whom you claim to serve. Well done!
mark,
I served in Iraq while you and people like you were back here safe in the US telling us that the "war was lost" and that our leaders, including Bush and General Petraeus, were "betraying us". Perhaps if you even knew a single soldier, Marine, airman, sailor, or Coastie, you wouldn't sound so ridiculous on a daily basis.
That sums it up.
Those people at the town hall meetings are not there because they're Republicans. They're there because they've got no confidence in government managed health care
this reply sure sounds to me as if you approve of the town hall thugs. i take it then, that your parallel description of the columbia university thugs would be something like "they were there because they have no confidence in racist vigilantes"?
in other words, do you or do you not condone people showing up and public meetings and shouting down people so that they are denied the ability to state their case?
i think you guys need to learn how to face issues and state a position
Once again, you've betrayed the troops with whom you claim to serve. Well done!
Classless and immature, mark. You continue to disappoint, and occasionally disgust, me. It's inconceivable how any reasonable person can take tfhr's stance on this "water" issue as treasonous. Where does that leave you?
My advice: when you have such base impulses, try to keep them to yourself.
Mark lives in a glass house that is so full of cracks he cannot see out of it.
Thanks for your service thfr. It is greatly appreciated by millions of ordinary American citizens--but I am sure you know that.
Um, the Iraq law *was* lost, tf.
In case you didn't notice, we didn't "stay the course" as Bush told everyone was essential.
Instead we were kicked out of Iraq on a surrender timetable that the Iraqis set.
Leaving on a timetable was Bush's definition of failure.
Palin now says there are many disturbing details in the bill. But she says people must stick to discussion of the issues "and not get sidetracked by tactics that can be accused of leading to intimidation or harassment."
The former Republican vice presidential candidate asked supporters not to give "proponents of nationalized health care any reason to criticize us."
yet you all continue to condone these tactics
equitus and skay,
Were you disgusted by the Swift Boat Veterans when they tore into Kerry? By those who mocked Max Cleland?
I certainly did not accuse tfhr of treason, though he has accused me many times of "spitting on the troops" when I have criticized Bush. Folks here have accused me and others of "championing" terrorists for wanting to close Gitmo (turns out you were accusing Gen. Petreaus of coddling terrorists. Ashamed?).
I am curious as to why he (or others here)continuously back Halliburton/KBR. Yes, they provide an important and difficult service. They have also been caught performing shoddy work, cutting corners and overbilling millions of dollars meant to provision our troops Just an innocent accoutning error, I'm sure) Laughing off a lawsuit by soldiers who were exposed to contaminated water and food doesn't seem very loyal to our men and women serving us.
mark,
Provide details on the lawsuit.
Skay,
Thank you. Without the support of people like you we would be getting the same treatment that Vietnam veterans received at the hands of people that saw that conflict as the stepping stone to their political goals here at home.
Jaw Bone,
Seek psychiatric help.
If the lawsuit in question was filed in referring to Balad then the facts are slightly different then represented here. The initial suit was filed by a civilian KBR employee and remains in pretrial motions except that it was denied class action status while the suit filed the six soldiers has gone nowhere because no damages were alleged rather just the possibility.
There seems to be a legitimate disagreement over who had responsibility for the burn pit that supposedly contaminated the water. But in pretrial motions the type of ailments claimed by the litigants also showed up at other bases that did not have any indication of contaminated water.
The problem remains for the left is simple, inefficiency is not a strong enough reason to discredit the war effort else not issuing enough ammunition to the Union soldiers before the Battle of Manassas enough reason to allow slavery to continue. If it wasn't the water the left would have found something else to try to delegitimize the war, wrong camo, wrong armor, not enough vests, stop loss, anything and at anytime. And the not so subtle claiming that only the poor, desperate and uneducated enlisted so that chickenhawks could have uninterrupted full fuel tanks in their Hummers. Not quite the baby killers of Vietnam but a stereotype and an untruthful one at that.
Actually, Pat, the suit you outline is one of many against contractors. Anyone who wishes to learn more can simply do a google search and you'll get dozens. Halliburtonwatch.com outlines a number of cases in which the company has acknowledged overbilling millions. Whether they were oversights or cases of war-profiteering only depends on your level of gullibility.
So your excuse is to bring up the Manassas and slavery?
How about gearing up that anger about our tax money being wasted or stolen (especially when it's supposed to provision the troops)?The apathy and dismissive jokes are not serving our troops. How is criticizing inefficiency and corruption betraying the troops? How is staying silent about it patriotic?
Because this clamor was not aimed at bettering the lot of soldiers but simply to undercut their deployment. As if nothing is perfect then nothing should be attempted. Are you arguing now that it is the overbilling and not the contaminated water that is the problem? If so then I feel vindicated because as one excuse is knocked down then another becomes just as earth shaking. War is not perfect and as George Galloway discovered even those of the annointed class can find themselves tempted to reach into that piggy bank for a share.
None of the reasons you have argued mark are anything other than simply an attack on the legetimacy of the war and none on actually improving the lives of the servicement there. Lawsuits for imagined damages and tired comment postings have purified how many glasses of water or dug one more sanitary disposal pit?
Pat Patterson,
You're putting me out of a job.
Nothing but scraps left.
mark?
What he said. Well put, PP. mark's accusations are transparently contrived lib talking-points. His real motivation is plain to see.
Of course we want the best for the soldiers. I'm not sure which is more annoying: the insult that we don't or the sheer stupidity of the allegation.
That's it? Your defense of war-profiteering and negligence is that liberals were looking for something, anything, and finally found it.
That's about as sensical as defending Bush for ignoring the 9/11 warnings by saying Clinton didn't do anything, either. Or if libs said the Clinton-Lewinsky disgrace didn't matter because repubs just wanted something to embarass Bill.
If you wanted the best for the troops, why weren't you paying attention to what was going on and putting pressure on the administration? There was no accountability for the Bush administration, and you all let it slide. Patriotism isn't measured by the number of flags and ribbon magnets you can fit on your car.
Defending Halliburton over soldiers, the apathy regarding Bush's vile mocking of troops he sent into danger, and the condoning of soldiers being trashed by Swiftboaters and others (many who never served). My point about fake outrage has been proved.
mark,
What is this?
"...the condoning of soldiers being trashed by Swiftboaters...."
If Kerry wanted to run on the strength of his performance and experience in Vietnam, I think it would be fitting and fair to hear from those that were there with him. But what about "Swiftboating" soldiers?
Just as you have tarred John Gilchrist as a "racist vigilante" (you've not provided evidence for either to support your smear), you liberally toss around unsubstantiated charges that Halliburton/KBR has been found guilty of "war-profiteering and negligence". It seems as if you cannot carry on a debate without creating a villain first.
Halliburtion/KBR was on the ground in Bosnia with America's Armed Forces when Bill Clinton sent us in and they are still there now. Was that and is that all about "war-profiteering"?
Anyway, Pelosi needs to consider the long term effects of vilifying Americans that are concerned about government involvement in their health care. In her mind, long term could be 2010.
Mistakes happen in any large logistical operation. Haliburton makes mistakes, and if discovered are forced to rectify them. Does mark think these problems are malicious? Has there been some cover-up he can link us to? Why should I be so terribly concerned about the quality of the water supply in Iraq - casting blame and seeking vengeance - when there are snafus as bad or worse happening every day in the US?
mark's decision to highlight and preach in high dudgeon over this specific snafu is an immature and misguided attempt to distract and demagogue.
Where's mark's outrage about the ash pit spill in Tennessee? It doesn't suit his political objectives, so it's ok to ignore.
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