By a vote of 7-2, Bush v. Gore (2000) ruled that Florida's recount violated the principle that all votes must be treated uniformly. Applying precedents dating to the 1960s, the Court found that the Equal Protection Clause meant that ballots must be treated so as to give every vote equal weight. A state may not, by "arbitrary and disparate treatment, value one person's vote over that of another." Florida's lack of standards produced "unequal evaluation of ballots in several respects." The state's supreme court "ratified this uneven treatment" and created more of its own, and was unconstitutional.Then, in a 5 -4 decision the Court ordered the counting to stop and thus, Bush won Florida's Electoral College votes.
The Minnesota recount has violated the principle established in Bush v. Gore that the same standards should apply to all votes. You might disagree with the decision, but that is the precedent of the case and thus the law of the land.
Consider the inconsistencies: One county "found" 100 new votes for Mr. Franken, due to an asserted clerical error. Decision? Add them. Ramsey County (St. Paul) ended up with 177 more votes than were recorded election day. Decision? Count them. Hennepin County (Minneapolis, where I voted -- once, to my knowledge) came up with 133 fewer votes than were recorded by the machines. Decision? Go with the machines' tally. All told, the recount in 25 precincts ended up producing more votes than voters who signed in that day.His suggestion is that, since there is no looming deadline as there was in 2000, that Minnesota have a special election. That would be a relief instead of this suspicion that we'll never know who really won because of all the dubious calls that have been made already.
Then there's Minnesota's (first, so far) state Supreme Court decision, Coleman v. Ritchie, decided by a vote of 3-2 on Dec. 18. (Two justices recused themselves because they were members of the state canvassing board.) While not as bad as Florida's interventions, the Minnesota Supreme Court ordered local boards to count some previously excluded absentee ballots but not others. Astonishingly, the court left the decision as to which votes to count to the two competing campaigns and forbade local election officials to correct errors on their own.
If Messrs. Franken and Coleman agreed, an absentee ballot could be counted. Either campaign could veto a vote. Dean Barkley of the Independence Party, who ran third, was not included in this process.
Thus, citizens' right to vote -- the right to vote! -- was made subject to political parties' gaming strategies. Insiders agree that Mr. Franken's team played a far more savvy game than Mr. Coleman's. The margin of Mr. Franken's current lead is partly the product of a successful what's-mine-is-mine-what's-yours-is-vetoed strategy, and of the Coleman team's failure to counter it.
The process is not over yet, since the state court decision in effect kicked the can down the road. The candidates can revisit these issues by contesting the legal validity of the election under state law -- which Mr. Coleman's team did last week.
But as matters stand now, the Minnesota recount is a legal train wreck. The result, a narrow Franken lead, is plainly invalid. Just as in Bush v. Gore, the recount has involved "unequal evaluation of ballots in several respect" and failed to provide "minimal procedural safeguards" of equal treatment of all ballots. Legally, it does not matter which candidate benefited from all these differences in treatment. (Mr. Franken did.) The different treatment makes the results not only unreliable (and suspicious), but unconstitutional.
20 comments:
My guess is that Franken still wins because the GOP does not have the stomach for a fight, they've proven over and over again that they've become the party of wimps.
Unfortunately, Minnesota's Supreme Court are Democrat, they ruled against Coleman's appeal.
This case will be rejected by the US Supreme for lack of jurisdiction. Electing a senator is a state issue, whereas electing a president is a national (federal) issue. Ergo US Supreme decided Bush-Gore, refused the case of NJ's unethical last minute senatorial replacement, and will reject to hear Coleman.
Republicans just have to win enough votes to make finding extras in garages and parking lots useless. Franken is following Washington governor's 2004 playbook. Nothing new.
It is time for Coleman to concede gracefully. He did not win the election. He did not win the recounts. He could not steal it. He could not win it in lawsuits.
Why hasn't he conceded yet? Sore loser.
Hey Jaw Bone,
Who won the 2000 Florida election?!
Let me hear you say it!!!
Say, "George W. Bush", Jaw Bone. Say it and then you can plead for Coleman to concede.
Hey fhrt - Bush was awarded the election by republican-appointed judges on the Supreme Court.
They adjudicated a controversy over Florida's 25 electoral votes in favor of Bush on grounds that appeared unfair. Gore, the better man, decided that accepting the decision was better for the country. Al Gore received more popular votes than Bush.
So what's your point?
"Bush was awarded the election by republican-appointed judges on the Supreme Court."
Wrong! Although liberals cling to this fiction in the hopes of repeating the lie often enough.
The facts are: the United States Supreme Court held in Bush v. Gore that the PARTIAL statewide manual recount of undervotes ordered by the Florida supreme court violated the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. The Court also held that because the Florida court itself had held that under Florida law December 12 was the deadline in Florida for selecting presidential electors, no time was left to conduct a new, constitutionally adequate recount.
Jaw Bone,
What's my point? Here are several:
1. Gore felt he had a right to contest the election results and went to court. So can Coleman.
2. Gore lost and maybe Coleman will too.
3. Gore lost on several counts - see Hank's contribution - but he did not concede until he was left with no recourse. Gore's delay drove a wedge into this country and seems to have been the source of the plague that still afflicts you: BDS.
4. EVERY SINGLE MEDIA SPONSORED "RECOUNT" FOUND THAT BUSH WON THE POPULAR TALLY IN FLORIDA. I wonder if there will be any similar media rehashings of Minnesota's vote count if Coleman loses?
5. Gore did win the popular count nationwide, though he somehow lost in his own home state where people know him best, but more importantly, he lost the ELECTORAL COLLEGE. Please become informed on this important detail.
Finally, Jaw Bone, use the proper acronym: tfhr. You don't want to sound like another sore loser, Biddle, do you?
Your points are well taken, and I agree in most cases. You do seem more like a fhrt than anything else, blowing in with a special sensation, surprising everyone including yourself -- well chosen handle.
4. EVERY SINGLE MEDIA SPONSORED "RECOUNT" FOUND THAT BUSH WON THE POPULAR TALLY IN FLORIDA.
You know, something untrue doesn't become true just because you yell it out loud, fhtr. That belief is why you're on the losing end of so many arguments. You have problems distinguishing fact from extreme ideology.
For example, here is a report of two independent media-sponsored recounts that found Al Gore won the popular tally in Florida.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jan/29/uselections2000.usa
It doesn't really matter. Just acknowledge your factual error and move on.
Jaw Bone is looking at the Florida vote result on the one day it actually appeared, via an early sampling of the counties Gore asked for a recount that Gore indeed had won. This article, the link is botched, was released in late January of 2001.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2001-04-03-floridamain.htm#more
While a much broader study released in May by eight newspapers including the two, the Washington Post and the Palm Beach Post accepted that using the methadology that Gore had demanded that Bush won.
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/when_the_votes_were_recounted_in_florida.html
Jaw Bone must look at history like going to a baseball game where every popup from a certain angle looks like a home run. I think an apology to tfhr might be appropriate but I'm not recommending him to hold his breath.
Just in case the two links I posted are broken up because of their length here both are via Tunyurl.
The first from The Guardian;
http://tinyurl.com/98qwfe
The second from the Fact Check review;
http://tinyurl.com2zakfz
J-Bone,
Your rush to salvage something from your previous embarrassment has only made you look worse. Your media examples were from a Guardian article in January 2001.
Read the article again and this time don't skip over the part where it admits that "no absolute conclusions can be drawn from the overvotes...." That is to say that one of the surveys is not comprehensive enough to draw the conclusion that is at the heart of your fantasy.
As for the second survey, counting "dimpled" chads in Palm Beach is one thing but if you do it state wide then you get this result, as per the NYT:
"The [MSM]consortium examined 175,010 ballots that vote-counting machines had rejected last November. Those included so-called undervotes, or ballots on which the machines could not discern a preference for president, and overvotes, those on which voters marked more than one candidate.
The examination then sought to judge what might have been considered a legal vote under various conditions -- from the strictest interpretation (a clearly punched hole) to the most liberal (a small indentation, or dimple, that indicated the voter was trying to punch a hole in the card). But even under the most inclusive standards, the review found that at most, 24,619 ballots could have been interpreted as legal votes." [http://tinyurl.com/7poh9m]
The NYT article backs up an earlier study from April 2001 in which USA Today found that Bush won overall and with undervotes counted. "The study shows that these errors were disproportionately common among Democratic voters [apparent morons]. (I added that for you, j-bone) For example, in Orange County, home of Orlando, Gore edged Bush 50%-48% in the election. But Gore won the undervotes by 64%-33%, giving him a net gain of 137 votes. That accounted for half of the 261 votes Gore gained in optical-scan counties, which Bush won overall by 53%-44%..." [http://tinyurl.com/9rj6sf]
The rest of the April 4, 2001 USA Today story headlined, “Newspapers' recount shows Bush prevailed,” by reporter Dennis Cauchon, is summed up here:
"George W. Bush would have won a hand count of Florida's disputed ballots if the standard advocated by Al Gore had been used, the first full study of the ballots reveals. Bush would have won by 1,665 votes -- more than triple his official 537-vote margin -- if every dimple, hanging chad and mark on the ballots had been counted as votes, a USA TODAY/Miami Herald/Knight Ridder study shows. The study is the first COMPREHENSIVE review of the 61,195 "undervote" ballots that were at the center of Florida's disputed presidential election....
[http://tinyurl.com/7r222w]
Yes, J-Bone, time marches on and even the MSM can get some things right, though they might not like to talk about it. In November 2001, a University of Chicago study was sponsored by a consortium of MSM giants, including the Washington Post, which was one of the papers mentioned in your Guardian article, the New York Times, Los Angeles Times, CNN and AP were also behind the study. It even included the Palm Beach Post, your other paper from the Guardian article of January 2001.
The University of Chicago concluded that George W. Bush still would have won under either legally possible recount scenario which could have occurred: The Florida Supreme Court ordered recount of undervotes statewide or Gore’s request for a recount in certain counties. The New York Times led its November 12, 2001 front page article, “Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote.” [http://tinyurl.com/7r222w]
So, I do regret that I did not caveat my claim to include only valid MSM surveys. The two you refer to were rendered invalid by the study sponsored by the same two papers 10 months later.
Check the overcounts and gore wins
'Jaw Bone' thinks 'tfhr' is an embarrassingly apt pseudonym because if you rearrange the letters in just the right way it looks a bit like 'fart'. He apparently hasn't noticed that the most famous 'jaw bone' in history is the one Samson found in Judges 15:15 and used in the next verse: the jaw bone of an ass. No rearrangement of letters is needed to make 'Jaw Bone' an embarrassingly apt pseudonym.
Of course, I would never have mentioned this if 'Jaw Bone' hadn't decided that mocking others' pseudonyms is a reasonable form of argument.
People always conveniently forget that there were other things going on in the recount besides looking at 'overvotes', 'undervotes', and hanging chads. For instance, lawyers hired by the Democrats challenged every military absentee ballot, and Republican lawyers then sued to have them counted. Republicans won the vast majority of these suits, but hundreds of these votes were never counted because the Supreme Court decision made all the suits that had not yet been decided moot. In other words, if the counting had continued, Bush would have picked up a few hundred more military absentee ballots. That means that even if counting chads had somehow given Gore 600 more votes, that wouldn't have been enough to overcome Bush's 579-vote lead (I think that was the final tally) -- he would have needed 800-1000 to overcome the 579-vote lead plus the not-yet-counted military absentee ballots.
Even that doesn't consider the thousands of votes cast illegally by convicted felons and by people who also voted in other states. Most of these were in heavily Democratic areas, so Gore only came as close as he did because of these illegal votes.
I prefered the Band's description:
"Oh, jawbone, when did you first go wrong?
Oh, jawbone where is it you belong?
Three time loser, you'll never learn..."
But then they endorsed Jimmy Carter so what do they know?
And yet one more thing to cast doubt on the claims that Gore really won Florida: The MSM called the state for Gore before the polls had closed in the very Republican panhandle, and it's reported that this depressed voter turnout in the area.
Focus, fhrt and Patterson, focus. Fhrt shouted out his claim "4. EVERY SINGLE MEDIA SPONSORED "RECOUNT" FOUND THAT BUSH WON THE POPULAR TALLY IN FLORIDA."
The link I provided showed that his claim was false. He is frequently wrong, but has problems accepting that.
As to the underlying proposition, who got more votes in Florida, we will probably never know for certain, because the Supreme Court ordered recounts to stop.
Al Gore won more votes nationwide though. We know that for sure.
- Bone®,
ELECTORAL COLLEGE - these may just be big words to you Bone®, but it is how we elect a president here in the United States, so take a look at the Twelfth Amendment.
If Al Gore cannot win the Electoral College, he cannot be President. You need to update your references so you don't miss out on details like these.
The Washington Post and the Palm Beach Post intially argued that Gore had won but after participating in the consortium accepted that result as the more factual. It's like claiming that the score at half time has equal validity as the final score. Plus do we really want to consider definitive the premature judgement of a paper that actually conducted a letter writing campaign to the residents of Clark County Ohio to vote for John Kerry because for some strange reason the rest of the world hadn't got their absentee ballots.
Or perhaps Jaw Bone believes that Notre Dame won the game vs USC in 1974 because the half time score was 24 to 7.
Post a Comment